The Vick Divide – ESPN’s Town Hall Meeting

ESPN will be hosting a “Town Hall Meeting” to discuss former Atlanta Falcons QB, Michael Vick and all of the events surrounding his involvement in illegal dog fighting. This topic has been discussed in many forums and continues to provide fodder for corporations, non-profits and individuals with well-defined agendas. Vick is being referred to as “a polarizing figure” by ESPN. During the height of the media frenzy, Vick was often called “the most polarizing figure in the history of the city of Atlanta.” That’s heady praise for a Negro in a city which has been ruled by so many heavy-handed white supremacists. It is a testament to the progress of “race relations” that a vilified Black man could supplant vile and capricious white leaders and citizens who unleashed the full fury of the state to rip the economic base out of Black Atlanta. Research on the seemingly innocuous practice of white flight raises questions on the economic consequences of “conditional Southern hospitality.” Just as it was in the 1950’s, this is about “freedom of association.” Even if it costs half a million dollars.

(Don’t get it twisted. This is no lament over segregation. After all, it’s not as bad in the South as it is in the North. More importantly, however, I do not find that residential intregation trumps systematic, honest fiscal and tax policy reform as a long-term, replicable solution. Short hand: living next to white folks is not the balm you’ve been seeking – another post, another time.)

One of the “polarizing” questions is sure to be whether or not Michael Vick was singled out by federal authorities for prosecution. The question cannot be answered by looking at the practices of the federal government in this particular case. The ESPN producers will have to do the research into the international practice of dogfighting. This multi-billion dollar international activity is arguably more popular in Italy and Japan (among Mafia and Yakuza types, according to certain sources) than it is in the United States. Moreover, dog fighting is not restricted to the Black South or the urban North. Dog fighting was, historically, a sport for the wealthy – and, by extension was “legal.” It’s barbarism was an acceptable aspect of “the game” in this pre-Lassie society. Things have changed. It’s not a felony everywhere. In the Pacific Northwest, it’s a misdemeanor.

To answer the question of fairness, ESPN will need to do more than hand out microphones to “blacks and whites” for two hours. Given the recent arrests of Shaquanda Cotton in Texas and six young men in Jena, Louisiana, shaping the context for discussing fairness will be as hard as walking a craggy beach in bare feet. This is not an easy discussion – and it is flawed from its inception. After all, the REAL ISSUE with respect to this case isn’t even Michael Vick.

The issue is the split perceptions in the out-sized outrage of “whites” with respect to Black violations of law, code or creed, while simultaneously turning a blind eye and deaf ear to “white” violations of the same. The issue is the manner in which the court of public opinion reinforces (or at least seeks to reinforce) the idea that Black folk are 2nd class citizens.

If folks WAKE UP before Tuesday, the BLACK participants should not answer a single question about Michael Vick or his friends or the “Southern culture” or hip hop or DMX or Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson or anything posed by folks seeking to change the topic. There was no Mark Chmura Divide. There is no Chris Benoit Divide. There is no Bill Maas Divide. There was no Marv Albert Divide. There is a Barry Bonds Divide. There is an OJ Simpson Divide. There is no Rick Ankiel Divide. There is a Donovan McNabb Divide…but no Brett Favre Divide. There was a Ty Willingham Divide, but no George O’Leary Divide. There is no Charlie Weis Divide.

The topic is the same as it ever was…”white” folks in America are absolutely enmeshed in the supremacist psychosis which blinds them and anesthetizes them to “in group” criminality. It may be that that isn’t the worst of it. The worst of it may be the psychopathic need to deny the disease actually exists. Perhaps it is, after all, unavoidable that a people whose greatest national heroes were invariably hypocrites, masochists and pedophiles have no choice but to see the good in doped up wrestlers who kill themselves and their families.

If ESPN really wanted to discuss “The Vick Divide,” they could host it in Forsythe County, Georgia and advertise it as a “whites-only meeting.” I’d buy popcorn for that.

As it stands, Tuesday is sure to be a waste of time. The audience should expect to come away bruised and bloodied. I’ll pass on this inevitable minstrel fiasco.


  1. This will not only accomplish nothing and reinforce the fact that folks are making a lot of scratch out of black men’s misfortunes, but it might be funny. The absurdity might be hilarious at this point for me…3 games into the regular season…’bruised and bloodied’ by the 3+ months of the Vick drama playing on the ‘great white way’…still walking around in a daze. Now all I think I can do is laugh at the absurdity. Since it’s a couple blocks from where I live might have to peek in and see if I get a chuckle from all the fake righteous indignation that is surely to be in the room. Then again, I might choke on all that hot ass air. LOL

  2. Temple3,

    I am interested to hear what you think about how the whole Vick controversy plays into the history of a city which has hosted some of the most fearsome race riots in American history and has alternatively hoisted itself in the past as a city “too busy to hate.”

  3. Thanks PT.

    Ubstu – I’m probably not the best person for that. My history of being in Atlanta is brief and lascivious (thank heavens). I can’t claim to know the city the way I know New York or Chicago or Philly.

    I will say that in doing the research, I came across a great deal of information affirming the idea that ATL was “too busy to hate.” I believe that ATL offers a distinct, critical vehicle for understanding the past and future of Black folk in America – but I don’t have the best answer.

    SportsDiva has better answers than I do on this. Michael Fisher does as well. I gladly defer to them.

  4. Racial problems? What problems? I will take on the same mental health issue that the “people” in Jena seem to have. This is not about race. DOGS are more important than humans! Mychael Bell is in prison and we are meeting about obvious racism in Atlanta. Is there a divide? yes but the divide isn’t racial it is economic. And you see what happens when the “majority” thinks that you have too much $$$$$$$ they call PETA! CNN is all about making $$$$$. Why not organize and protest Bell’s incarceration, and Vick’s RAPE of rights. Arthur Blank made Billions off of Vick and probrably hundreds of thousands off of “Vick’s dogs”. Town Hall meeting; more like Town Hall Mascre. Where is our pride? Where is Democracy? Where are the HUMANS?

  5. There is no race issue. Blacks in Atlanta will take up issue with all vendors and sponsors of the Atlanta Falcons. Blacks are clear on how to affect a people who perform injustice on our people. We no longer sing the same song. We Shall Overcome… Yes we shall. And the vendors in the Dome and the Atlanta Falcons will suffer and pay the price. Think that isn’t fair? Misplaced aggression? Well since we as a country and ESPN, and the NFL, seem to think that Vick’s life is a joke… It is only fair that we respond by withholding our $ from all vendors and sponsors of the Atlanta Falcons. Wonder what you bottom line will indicate after this protest? We will begin to withdraw soon and will continue as long as it takes for Vick to be treated as a HUMAN with some justice. And the way things are looking right now… All sponsors i.e. Coke, Delta, Home Depot hope you did well this quarter. Because it looks like your bottom line may be going to the DOGS. RACE! Nothing is about RACE! It is always about MONEY! You want Michael Vick’s bonus back? Sure just refund him the billions that you made off of him, his jersey, and those butts in the Dome’s seats. Come on! Atlanta wasn’t winning games… We were supporting Michael Vick #7. After all 7 is a DEVINE #!

  6. When you look at the panelists that ESPN is putting forth for this ruse, its really clear that they just don’t care. They could careless about even the appearence of objectivity and fairness. THis will not be some thought-provoking townhall meeting…this will not be honest and open dialogue….this is just another slap. This is another wake-up call to black folks that, honestly, if we don’t start understanding this machine, we will find ourselves going thru the Colored-Only doors again and wondering “how did we get here?”

  7. I hate to tell y’all this but “race” and “money” are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps you believe that the GOLD in the Bank of England came from somewhere other than AFRICA – you know, the place with all the Black people working in mines at gunpoint.

    Anyway, whenever you get comfortable with saying that “racism” still matters, we can have illuminating discussions about how “racism” impacts money, income and the intergenerational accumulation of wealth and national riches.

    What the hell is going on in Atlanta??

  8. What does rasicm have to due with the burtily of dog fighting and killing of innocent animals. Would there be this much support for a white football play for the same crime no because black people would not care. Black people only see in color not in right and wrong. And Michael Vick should be put in a cage and have to fight to live against another player and then if he does not perform well should be shot just like his dogs. Eye for eye.

  9. Also if it just happen to be a black man that is not famous no money connections and no fans would everyone run to help him. And he would most likely be getting the maximum punishments, where as Vick will only get probation and a pat on the back because he is famous and because he is black.

  10. How can you say Vick took responsability for his actions, he denied everything to the commissioner and the Falcons’ owner until his freinds turned on him. He took responsability only after he was cornered and had no defense.

  11. I’m tired about hearing about racism, Michael Vick was the highest paid football player and the face of the NFL. Blacks in this country need to stop making excuses for their athletes and take responsability when they do wrong. How can you make so much money and have such poor judgement? I’m watching the ESPN broadcast and can’t believe the audience; talk about RACISM!

  12. You know why there wasn’t a divide when it came to the above people named who happen to be white, because people did not come out and make excuses for their actions. There weren’t white people out protesting Marv Alberts arrest or Pete Roses or Rick Ankiels. Vicks supporters are using the race card and not right from wrong, This country will never progress until Black people take responsability for their athletes.

  13. Some people are limited to a way of thinking because that’s how they are taught. In other parts of the world, people eat dogs. Sounds crazy? Well these dawgs are raised for that purpose. Just like we breed chickens, we have birds as pets like parrots. Some animals serve particular purposes. Michael Vick had nothing to do with this tpye of dog being bred to fight. It was simply something he picked up in his life. It is a racial issue and it’s obvious because of what’s airing on ESPN. You give people the opoortunity and the TRUTH is not hard to see. Albert Haynsworth of the Titans stepped on a guys face with football shoes and that wasn’t as big a deal. He shoe be in prison for assault with a deadly weapon. Our society, often whit people tend to guage what’s wrong and what’s not. Vick was wrong but at least give him the benefit of the doubt. A multiple year sentence is absurd when there are people who kill people and walk the streets everyday scott free. If PETA is so concerned, why are they boycotting grocery stores for selling meat. Or all the people who wear animal skins and furs. And don’t mention the blood diamonds from Africa that Our entire nations adorns themselves with. Judge not because no deed will go unpunished. Keep your words soft and sweet because one day you may have to eat them. Think twice speak once. Love and Peace to you all.

  14. Some people are limited to a way of thinking because that’s how they are taught. In other parts of the world, people eat dogs. Sounds crazy? Well these dogs are raised for that purpose. Just like we breed chickens, we have birds as pets like parrots. Some animals serve particular purposes. Michael Vick had nothing to do with this type of dog being bred to fight. It was simply something he picked up in his life. And it was brought to America by white men trying to protect cattle. It is a racial issue and it’s obvious because of what’s airing on ESPN. You give people the opoortunity and the TRUTH is not hard to see. Albert Haynsworth of the Titans stepped on a guys face with football shoes and that wasn’t as big a deal. He should be in prison for assault with a deadly weapon. Our society, often white people tend to guage what’s wrong and what’s not according to their beliefs. If the justice system was just then Bush would be impeached, O.J. would be in jail, so on and so on. Vick was wrong but at least give him the benefit of the doubt. A multiple year sentence is absurd when there are people who kill people and walk the streets everyday scott free. If PETA is so concerned, why are they boycotting grocery stores for selling meat. Or all the people who wear animal skins and furs. And don’t mention the blood diamonds from Africa that Our entire nations adorns themselves with. Judge not because no deed will go unpunished. Keep your words soft and sweet because one day you may have to eat them. Think twice speak once. Love and Peace to you all.

  15. I have been in law enforcement for some time now and everyone on the stage keeps talking about when you break the law you have to be willing to except the punishment. Well, as I said earlier I have been in law enforcement and I have yet to see someone that I have stopped say OK officer I broke the law please give me a ticket or take me to jail. Has anyone on your panel ever exceeded the speed limit? What did they do? I have never ever been called back to the police station to issue a ticket. While your panel is playing judge and jury please ask them what laws have they broken, and what are they going to do about it?
    The NFL had a coach break the rules of the nfl but he did not miss a day!!!!!!!

  16. White men made the laws for them to go hunt and kill deers, turkey, rabbits,ducks, bear, water fowl and other types of game. They love dogs, but who says that the
    black man’s best friend is a dog!!! It is an animal just like
    the rest of the animals listed above. I feel they are making
    him an example. It is just another way for the WHITE man to hold his food on the neck of a BLACK man. I REALLY
    feel it is not a big deal as they are making it.

    Frances ( a Black female)

  17. What is happening to America? We can no longer live in the past. We can no longer pass blame onto others, and not accept our own responsibilities, and our own actions. This goes much deeper than one can explain in an hour or a few lines. Michael Vick is a man, A MAN, who cares if he is black, white, or red. This Man committed a crime in which he got caught and prosecuted for. If he has done it before who knows? Only he knows. But he has committed a crime in which at first he denied. HE is human almost anyone would act the same if in his position, and what had what he would lose. We as great speakers have said in the past: get past the color barrier, and see things for what they are. A man committed a crime, and now he must pay the price. I do agree after he fulfills his punishment, he should be allowed to do whatever he wishes to do, that is a RIGHT to him, regardless of his color.

    I have noticed that the people who scream the loudest about racial discrimination are people who have the most to gain because of its existance. NAACP would not be around if there was no reason to scream racial discrimination. They are the first to yell that it is racial when in fact race should not have anything to do with it. Let’s get past this and realize that we are ruining this country, ruining our children’s futures by giving them a crutch to use anytime they need to instead of being responsible for their own actions. Parents need to raise these children. Parents need to teach their children, and parents need to lead their children by example. If this does not happen then there will always be a Michael Vick, regardless of the crime NAACP will scream racist when color has nothing to do with it.

  18. I want Vick 2 have a fair 2nd chance after he cleans this mess. Its a shame how being loyal 2 friends and family sometimes comes back 2 bite us hard. I really would like 2 see league suspensions to be issued all accross the board. How long has bellichik been infiltrating signals and taping practices? That deserves a suspension and is totally disrespectfull to the game.

  19. If you all would put the crystal meth down long enough to have a decent conversation about steroids, Chris Benoit and domestic violence, we could get somewhere.

    Anybody up for that convo?

  20. Racism is just as prevalent in white people as it is in black people. White people don’t pull out a race card like black people do. Why is the race card being pulled out here, saying that a white man wouldn’t be punished for breaking the law? I don’t see a need myself for any type of laws about race or gender or any type of ordeal as long as people are not blinded to see that it doesn’t matter what you look like, we all are made up of the same stuff- in reality we’re all the same person, plus nobody is all black or all white or all whatever. Michael Vick is highly paid and a celebrity, he must know that signing a contract and being in a position where the law still affects you is real and that things do happen to people. I’m not judging Michael Vick, i’m judging everybody else who is saying that this is based on race. It’s based on predetermined laws. The laws about animal cruelty weren’t created the day before they investigated. And with PETA, they’re just using this Michael Vick case to add publicity to themselves. How much air-time you think they get protesting at a store compared to a celebrity trial? And Temple, with that Benoit and steroids stuff, that’s another time another topic. I don’t know if people noticed, but it was insane how that people would applaud whenever they heard the race card pulled out. Just like Donovan McNabb- I don’t hear scrutiny against other black qbs other than them two. McNabb gets the worse because he’s in a town where they either love you or hate you, he’s been to three nfc championships… people expect him to do better because they can see that he has done good. I do believe that there are racists without a doubt, but this only adds to making racism more prevalent because this allows people to make excuses for something that really has no racial ties to it at all. Michael Vick should get the same rights as everybody else, and I think he is treated a little worse than normal because he denied the whole thing. He lied and then he goes back to apologize. That’s not a real man to hide the truth. And that whole “snitching” thing is totally retarded. Pleasing another person over telling the truth, that’s real honest people I see there. Ridiculous.


  21. In some places in the world people eat dogs?

    Who’s to say dogs are black mens best friend?

    Listen to yourselves.

    First of all. Some people beat their wives to DEATH LEGALLY in places in the middle east.
    Does that mean we should draw that comparison when a PERSON (white or black) beats their wife to death over here?

    Second. Hunting is legal, but it highly regulated. If you think hunting is a bunch of white folks going anywhere they please killing animals, you have no clue.
    It’s still legal because in a democracy THE PEOPLE never voted to make it illegal. People EAT what they hunt. Or Hunt wild game to keep the population down if its destructive.
    If people wanted dog fighting to be legal they should lobby for it. It will never pass. Dog fighting was made illegal in ENGLAND IN THE 1800’s. Even back then they knew it was barbaric.

    If payton manning or tom brady were caught dog fighting you would see the same amount of media hoopla. In fact it would be more of a hoopla cause it would be more of a surprise. Cause even though I was somewhat surprised that vick made the choices he did, it wasnt a stretch to envision someone who is so wrapped up in the hip hop culture engaging in such an activity.
    I think the hip hop culture has a huge effect on this. In atlanta kids (black and white) look up to and love TI and ludacris and numerous other rappers who brag about doing way worse than dog fighting. So I understand why so many “hip hop culture kids” stick up for vick. Cause whats dog fighting to them? Nothing. They celebrate guys who brag about selling crack, taking over neighborhoods to sell drugs, shooting people who mess with them. That is somehow cool, so dogfighting isn’t all that bad to them.

    And that way of thinking is poisining this country. I’ll admit. I love rap. But rap to me is like the godfather or casino or a mob/action movie. I can separate reality from the rap world. There are black and white people all over the country who can do the same.A lot of people can’t.

    This is a celebrity issue and nothing else. Vick was the “great black hope” at qb and for the city of atlanta. They are letting thier emotions get the best of them. If Chris chandler was caught, I wonder if the black community would rally as hard? HELL NO.

    And racism goes both ways and is wrong both ways. Tell me if Al Sharpton or jesse jackson or the naacp or any of you will rally behind this kid

    you wont. Cause if minorities engage in this behavior they are “sticking up for their own”
    When whites do it, they are racists.

    THEY ARE ALL RACISTS. Racism leads to racism. ITS ALL WRONG>

    RACE has nothing to do with the vick case other than a sidenote that it has caused a racial divide in the minds of the citizens.

  22. and yes he absolutley should be given a second chance. AND HE WILL.
    He will be released from paying his debt and will be free to earn a living.

    NOW, he doesnt OWN RIGHT to play another down of football. Sure the govt has no say, but the NFL does. The NFL is a business and i’m sure most people would lose thier jobs, or have a hard time getting one with felonies on thier record.

    I dont think the NFL should ban him. I dont think they will. He should be able to play. But you guys are going to have to understand why some won’t pay this guys hundreds of thousand, or millions of dollars to “work” or play for thier company (team).
    Its a call the company (NFL) will make, and they have every right to make it no matter which way the go.

    Another thing. Mike Vick may have come from the hood, and grew up like a lot of black kids. But other than that and thier mutual affinity for hip hop thats where the comparisons end. Even in high school vick was a pampered athlete. In college he recieved a free education for his talents and has always been treated as special. So his whole holding on to the “thug lifesyle” is baffling to me. I played college ball and a lot of guys (black) grow out of that stuff, some dont. The ones that do get their degrees and get good jobs. The ones that dont arent half as successful.

  23. I guess no one wants to talk about Benoit, steroids, and domestic violence. I can’t say this isn’t predictable.

    I would encourage Black posters to inquire within themselves as to why they feel the need to address white supremacists arguments about “black misconduct.” Maybe it’s just a natural “defense mechanism.” Maybe you believe that you can actually have a dialogue with your fellow citizens. Maybe you believe that any and all attacks need to be countered strategically and with passion. Whatever the case, please bear in mind that this is a DISTRACTION.

    Conversations with white folks about YOUR ethics and behavior and humanity are tantamount to discussions about whether or not you should be citizens or be allowed to live. Re-read some of the posts. They are questioning your right to live – to be citizens. Read Howard Bryant’s column.

    If you believe you’ll find common cause with these folks, best of luck. If you’re inclined to think twice about your position, pick up The Psychopathic Racial Personality. Read it a couple of times. When you’re done – you’ll see the lunacy of responding to these folks – or you won’t.

  24. Let me tell most of you fools something. Vick deserves to go to jail. It is not a race issue. That is the problem with the “african americans” in this country. They will fight for the rights of murderers, rapists, illegal activity (Vick), or any other thing that a BLACK person has been involved with….just b/c they are black. No wonder the BLACK race has never amounted to jack shit. Excuses, illigetimate babies, government funding, ignorance, etc. etc., abound in the black race….with only the white power excuse for a reason. How about this….TAKE SOME F^&*ING ACCOUNTABILITY. Nobody is keeping you down. You have just as much opportunity as anyone else (if not more!!). Use it and stop bitching. Until the BLACK race does that….they will never get respect…..from anyone. Listen to Bill Cosby. He nailed it. STOP FALLING INTO THE STEREOTYPE THAT YOU HAVE CREATED.

  25. ( guess no one wants to talk about Benoit, steroids, and domestic violence. I can’t say this isn’t predictable.

    I would encourage Black posters to inquire within themselves as to why they feel the need to address white supremacists arguments about “black misconduct.” Maybe it’s just a natural “defense mechanism.” )

    Sure, I’m here. What exactly is your comparison.The topic YOU brought up was Vick, so we talked about vick. Now you want to switch it to Benoit…..ok…..this is textbook defense mechanism, but ok. Change the subject buddy.

    First let me say most people didnt know who Benoit was. Wrestling is not even close to pro football in popularity. Most WHITE people didnt even know who this guy was. So if Tom brady did steroids then killed his wife and son, THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN WAAAAY BIGGER. But it was an obscure wrestler in a “sport” that nobody cares about. Benoit is no mike vick Popularity wise, thats why the vick thing got big….CELEBRITY. So if your saying “Why werent people outraged at benoit?” THEY WERE. But he was dead when it was all over. So we couldnt punish him anymore than he already did to himself. Trust me, he would have gotton life in prison and would continue to be crucified by the media.
    When benoit did what he did, America was sickened. Every person I know or heard talk about it said he was a piece of sh## and deserved to die. How can you give HGH to your 7 year old son. Domestic violence is a huge problem IN ALL COMMUNITIES. Steroids are a huge problem with whites and blacks and everyone trying to get a competetive advntage in sports. Steroids are illegal and people will be punished if they are caught with them BY THE LAW. If you beat your wife or kids you will be prosecuted BY THE LAW. Are you insenuating that somehow this is a white problem and that we get away with this? I agree its a white problem…its a HUMANITY problem.

    Barry bonds mark mcgwire. I hear blacks say “I dont want to talk about bonds, i want to talk about Mcgwire.” Which is fine. IM FROM ST LOUIS and people here HATE mcgwire. Nobody here makes excuses for that cheater. It just so happens that he retired years ago and ran off and hide from the public. So its natural that the guy WHO IS STILL PLAYING AND CHASING RECORDS will still get talked about more. BOTH ARE CHEATERS. Playing the race card in that situation and the vick situation is sad and ignorant.

    I just think that a lot of black people in this country know that when vick got caught there were a lot of whites that were thinking “typical Ni##er”. And yes, many whites do think that. Many whites dont think blacks are even citizens, more like animals. And they are so far off base from the MAJORITY of whites its not even funny. They are radical racists and they do exist. But because you know there is a section of our society that does feel that way, your compelled to defend vick at all costs. But both ends of the spectrum are completley ignorant and WRONG. Its wrong to stereotype and look at people as subhuman. Its also wrong to defend someone who broke the law simply because they are BLACK. Its reverse racism. I will talk both sides of the coin all day. I know, EVERYONE KNOWS, racism is still alive in this country. And i will gladly rail against any racist either white or BLACK. Yes blacks are racists too. But you guys never want to talk about black racism. Cause its just a “defense mechanism” No its called addressing THE ISSUE. The issue isnt one sided. So lets talk ALL racism and how to stamp it out, not just white racism.

    by the way, i will also gladly adress racism when it comes to the vick case. If i ever hear someone say “typical ni33er” i will argue till im blue in the face with that person. And when someone wears a Free mike vick Tshirt, i will argue with them too. Cause thats the only issue of race in this whole situation. People on both sides of extreme venting thier vile views.

  26. You never took a debate class did you?

    (would encourage Black posters to inquire within themselves as to why they feel the need to address white supremacists arguments about “black misconduct.” Maybe it’s just a natural “defense mechanism.” Maybe you believe that you can actually have a dialogue with your fellow citizens. Maybe you believe that any and all attacks need to be countered strategically and with passion. Whatever the case, please bear in mind that this is a DISTRACTION.)

    Translation- We dont need to address black racism with these crackers. They are just trying to deflect thier own problems with racism. They cant admit there is racism in this country. Why talk about our fellow blacks that are racist? It doesnt make sense. We are just racist because they are racist. They just want to change the subject and distract us.
    Now lets talk about vic….. i mean benoit….i mean

  27. wow
    There was no Mark Chmura Divide.
    There is no Chris Benoit Divide.
    There is no Bill Maas Divide.
    There was no Marv Albert Divide. There is a Barry Bonds Divide.
    There is an OJ Simpson Divide.
    There is no Rick Ankiel Divide.

    There is a Donovan McNabb Divide…but no Brett Favre Divide.
    There was a Ty Willingham Divide, but no George O’Leary Divide. There is no Charlie Weis Divide.

    With the white people you are using here, there is no divide because EVERYONE agrees they are scumbags. No whites are sticking up for most of these people. The only reason there is a DIVIDE, is because the blacks are sticking up for their own scumbags used in this example.

    (weis, willingham-not scumbags) That situation is wierd, but they fired Davy quick then willingham quick, maybe they learned it doesnt matter if you fire them quick, maybe they learned to be patient….no not in your eyes, its always about RACE

  28. You know what, it is so sad that you people can’t even realize when a crime is being commited as we speak. A HATE crime is committed daily on these message boards towards Michael Vick. Vick is a HUMAN BEING that made a mistake and to continue to wish death and all these hateful things upon him is just wrong and makes you far more inhumane than the killing of DOGS might I add could ever be. I was angry at Michael Vick at first but after seeing all the evil and injustice that is being spewed at him I must say that my opinion is different now and I am proud to now say I SUPPORT MICHAEL VICK. LEAVE THE MAN ALONE.

  29. You’re right, there isn’t a Mark Chmura/Chris Benoit/Marv Albert/Charlie Weis divide.

    I form my opinions on them, and on Michael Vick, Barry Bonds, OJ, etc. based on what they did…not who they are.

    Chmura and Albert are perverts, Benoit and OJ are murderers, Charlie Weis is overrated (and probably not as good of a coach as Willingham), Barry Bonds is a spoiled a-hole – I could care less what color they are.

    This racial divide in the Vick case is perpetuated by the NAACP and any organization who still trumpets the cause of someone who has exhibited behavior that shows a lack of morality. Michael Vick is a criminal, and he should be treated like one…not some sort of martyr.

  30. Where have i wished death on vick?

    You support vick? Thats a pretty broad statement.

    He will go to jail and get out and will be free to live his life the way he wants. Now, i dont believe or think the NFL should ban him. I dont think they will either. But they do have the right to. The NFL is a business and its a business decision on whether to let him play agian or not. He isnt entitled to play pro sports. You have to earn that right. ANYONE DOES. And he did damage to that right given his decisions. You cant argue that.

    At first you were mad at vick cause you were being rationale. Now you see people dragging him through the mud because of HIS DECISION and you defend him,,,,,,CAUSE HE’s BLACK. If tom brady was being crucified by the media because of bad decisions would you defend him….hell no

    do you defend other celebrities like britney spears who are being crucified because of thier bad mistakes…NOPE

  31. Simply put-
    In a culture that celebrates TI, LUDA, JEEZY the “snowman” why Cause i got snow man” and these guys who talk about shooting people and selling drugs, they wont think vick fighting dogs is that big of a deal. Dog fighting isn’t even all that “thugged out” compared to what the culture celebrates. Im not talking african american culture. Cause there is a difference between african american culture and the hip hop culture. Problem is, that line is so blurred with the youth, they dont know what african american culture is. The hip hop culture dominates their way of thinking.

    So, if you think guys that sell drugs or “get thier money little duffle bag boy” or “louie nap sack where their holding all their work at” are cool, why wouldnt you think vick is an alright guy for ONLY dog fighting. Vick isnt even that thugged out to these guys.

    You have that view, and the old school “whitey keeping us down” mentality of older black folks who arent part of the hip hop culture.

  32. good post by an AFRICAN AMERICAN on espn arguing this same topic.

    “I want to begin by saying that in this country RACE is always a factor, we SHOULD all be aware that Blacks are catogorized under a different standard in all aspects of society and accept that truth .With that being said, I have come to the realization that I can no longer defend the ignorance and actions of my people. I was amazed at some of the reactions and comments given by the audience during the Town Hall. As Blacks we should be outraged that Vick deprevied us the oppurtunity to have “one of our own” as the face of the NFL. His influence; along with Tony Dungy, Donovan Mcnabb and others, could have been instrumental in spearheading the debate for racial balance within the NFL. I lived in ATL and supported the Falcons throughout Vick’s tenure. I have debated in support of his validity as a QB a leader and as the best athlete the game has ever seen. As Falcon supporters we should be disappointed that, with all of his immense talent, as a starter in 4 full seasons, Vick helped the team to two winning seasons(with playoff berths), one division title(in the off&on NFC South) and no Super Bowls. Could the time spent fighting and executing dogs been better served watching film and studying defenses in anticipation of becoming a great quarterback? I am saddened by the plight of Michael Vick and believe, in some aspects, that he is recieving a raw deal. But I would like for my people to be more mindful of what we support and why.There are far greater injustices to hang our hat”

  33. Let me just get one thing out of the way. I hated Michael Vick way before dogfighting. I’m from New Orleans, so when I got to the Atlanta area with all of its Vick lovers, it became an regular thing for me to hate on this very over-paid, over-hyped individual on a weak team. And if you disagree with me on that, remember that the Falcons during Vick’s reign have won 2 more games than the Saints (widely regarded as a weak team) and Vick was one of the lowest producing QBs in the league, but that is not the point.

    The point is that Atlanta latched onto this guy from day one. He was their guy. Even when he got hurt repeatedly because he ran where no sane QB would dare run, even when his passer rating scraped the bottom of the NFL barrel, even when he flipped off his fans, Atlanta LOVED their #7. I couldn’t understand it. Vick seemed like a crappy person to have as a town hero. (Yes, Reggie Bush has had scandal but he also did a lot for Katrina victims, which makes him a hero in my book.)

    But my opinion strangely enough has softened over the course of this whole ordeal. I think that his actions were awful, don’t get my wrong, and he should be punished accordingly. But I also feel like he is not a mature enough person for all the world to be coming down upon him the way it has. Even his supporters have made things tougher for him, probably as much as his detractors. He has become a lightning rod, a role he chose of course, but a burden which isn’t really fair for anyone to have to bear.

    Someone on the show last night mentioned the “perfect storm” that Mike Vick has found himself in. And I think it is a pretty good analogy. If you haven’t seen the movie, the fishermen choose to risk their lives for money, knowing full well they might die. But when the sea literally comes crashing down on them, even a callous person won’t say they deserved what they got. Likewise, Vick signed his contract with the NFL, days later buying his Surrey County property, knowing full well he risked everything. Now, he’s reaping what he sowed. Yet, I still feel a little bad for the guy. I doubt he could ever have imagined becoming PETA’s poster boy.

    I loved to hate him in the past, but right now I sort of wish people would let the guy serve his jail sentence in peace and stop punishing him outside the courtroom. Stop villifying him or the society he represents, but also stop making excuses for him, because that hurts him just as much.

    The hero is just a man now, and as a man, we can show him some respect, by letting him decide how to live his life from here on.

  34. MIKE VICK ADMITTED TO FUNDING AN ILLEGAL DOGFIGHTING OPERATION. HE BROKE THE LAW. HE KILLED DOGS WITH GUNS, ELECTROCUTION, STARVATION AND TORTURE. HE FORCED INNOCENT DOGS TO VICIOUSLY TEAR INTO ONE ANOTHER TIL DEATH SO HE COULD MAKE A LITTLE $$$$$ (i guess millions a year in pay and endorsments wasnt payin’ the bills, greedy bastard) . HE BROKE THE LAW. HE KILLED DOGS FOR MONEY… Now, if there is anyone who thinks that Michael Vick should not be punished, just like anyone else ( yes, even whites) who break FEDERAL laws, you need to get your head out of your ass and use your brain. It is as simple as that. IT IS NOT RACIST, IT IS THE LAW. Everyone is tired of black people always making a racial excuse when a black man gets arrested. Oh yeah, I bet O.J. Simpson is innocent this time too, huh

  35. im sure he does,
    be was was annonymous like everyone else on a message board
    jeff was the name attached. WHY? whats your pathetic point there.

    and i adressed benoit, show me where white people were sticking up for benoit. The next night, the scum of the earth bastard Vince Mchmon (sp?) did a little tribute and got totally blasted in the media. He had to recant.
    What is your comparison with the benoit thing.

    your pathetic attempt at comparing that to the vick case in hopes of proving some kind of racism going on. Truly sad. Fact is, you will spend your whole life being the way you are. Racism is real and should be fought wherever no doubt. But fight it WHEREVER IT IS. When your friend calls a white guys a cracker or “white boy” tell him he is doing the same thing the other idot racists are when they use the n word. When five white kids beat up a black kid, Cry foul, investigate. But do it when five black kids do the same. Don’t allow others around you to be racist while harboring racist feelings themselves.

    Once again, the vick case has nothing to do with race, other than idiots like you who seek and find it. Go fight more legit battles.

  36. Vick tests positive for weed

    Lets hear the excuses.

    Weed should be legal anyway, its legal in Amstradame right.

    Everyone makes mistakes right? He just happened to make another one.

    See i have nothing against those who smoke weed. I think it should be legal. But if i knew i was in trouble or if i had to take a piss test for a job, i wouldnt smoke. Its called “playing the game”. Vick just keeps lying to us and you (his people) and you continue to blindly wear
    FREE MIKE VICK shirts….free him from what. You are acting like he is in chains or is being detained in an illegitamate manner. Everything happening to him BY law is going BY THE BOOK.

    Public opinion is public opinion. Not too sure why your fighting that so much. Oh yea….CAUSE HE IS BLACK. Blind ignorant people. Pay attention, WAKE UP. Go fight the real racism in this country.

  37. Nick – if you were paying attention – which you were not, you’d know I haven’t mentioned race or racism once…and you also have no idea what my position is on any of this. It’s certainly not in this post. You’re flying off the handle. It’s reactionary and ugly – and I wonder what it’s all about.

    Still, you rant and rave, misbehave, demonstrate the habits of the cave – and wonder why there is so much confusion.

    What’s all that anger about Nick? Maybe you have me confused with someone else? Maybe you’ve been subjected to “race-based” rants for awhile. Let it out…have a seat on the couch.

    You’ll simply have to get a grip if we’re to engage in a conversation – and that conversation (just so that you’re crystal clear) will NOT be about Michael Vick. We could talk about your anger. We could talk about a bunch of things. We could always talk about Benoit and steroids and domestic abuse – preferably after you’ve read the forlorn comments on those web sites I referred you to. Come back when you’re ready to talk about something other than Michael Vick. Perhaps you want to talk about “The Divide.”

    I don’t want you to come unhinged like so many other posters.

  38. if im not mistaken this thread is about MIKE VICK. So thats what i am talking about. My anger, if thats what it is, is more or less directed at the 300 or so “idiots” in the audience at the “town hall meeting” the other day. As an african american, you have to be embarassed by those ignorant people. I know they dont represent all black people or even the city of atlanta….but wow.

  39. Temple,

    First of all, you claim you haven’t, “mentioned race or racism once.” If you literally mean you haven’t written the words “race” or “racism” once, you may be right. But the entire content of your article is based on race! You consistently site differnces in treatment between blacks and whites. You specifically reference “the Black South”, “white folks”, and even included an image of a sign reading “We serve whites only”. How can you claim you haven’t “mentioned race once”? It’s almost the entire content of your original article.

    Your evasiveness towards your original point makes it clear that you are insecure about your original assumptions. After Nick responded to your Vick statements, you confusingly brought up Chris Benoit without explanation as to how that pertains to your original point. Then he addressed that issue, and you still begged for a response to an unexplained question. Why?

    The obvious answer is that you realized this is more about FAME than RACE. You just chose to pick a poor example because few people even know who Chris Benoit is. Furthermore, steroids is a poor example, because current law is just now catching up. Someone mentioned that Mark McGwire is now villified for taking steroids. However, even he wasn’t breaking laws (or even baseball rules) when he did it. In ’98 when he was about to break the single season home run record, he had Androstenedione in his locker, in view of reporters. Because it wasn’t illegal! It is now…now that Barry has broken his record and other records, but it must be because he’s black, right?

    No, it’s because he’s famous. Many minor league players are being subjected to the exact types of punishments by baseball as major leaguers. But kids don’t know any minor league players. MLB and America can’t make an example out of minor league players for the benefit of helping our youth. Asking Jorge Piedra and Mike Morse or even Rick Ankiel, as you chose to mention, to testify before Congress on steroids charges will do nothing. But Barry has the image to make a difference. And it is the athlete’s (the superstar’s) responsibility to accept that. IT IS AN ISSUE OF FAME! And black people happen to be more high-profile sometimes when it comes to playing sports.

    You mentioned, “There IS an OJ divide.” Chris Rock made the point about OJ in his bit on HBO, “This is not an issue of race, but fame. If OJ drove a bus, it would not be a trial about OJ. He would be ‘Orenthal the Bus-driving murderer.”

    I’ve also heard a lot of talk about injustice, even on this message board. What injustice has Michael Vick incurred so far? He hasn’t even been convicted of anything!! He has admitted to bankrolling the operation, but what is the injustice? People are so quick to cry “racism”. Yes he has endured an abnormal amount of media attention, but that has nothing to do with being black. If he was “just some guy in Virginia” with the same charges, we wouldn’t know about it. See the above comments, please.

    Now, Temple, you invited Nick to a conversation, and I would like to join. You said you could talk about his anger. I haven’t perceived any anger from him, perhaps you could specify where you did. His responses seem very relevant. Maybe being elaborate seems angry. You say we could talk “about Benoit and steroids and domestic abuse”. Sure…it seems to detract from the points you’ve made here, but I love a thoughtful discussion.

    Please consider these thoughts and my invitation to further discussion. You seem like an educated person so your naivete and blindness surprises me. I’d like to know where it originates from….

  40. Nick – you are mistaken. This thread is about the Town Hall Meeting. Take it from the title, the first sentence, the first paragraph or the body. Vick is mentioned to the extent that he’s the topic of the Town Hall meeting…but read it again.

  41. Benzi – none of the content of this post is based on “race.” It may be based on white supremacism/racism, but it is not based on race. If you can understand the distinction, we can continue, otherwise you may be wasting your time – and mine.

  42. And Benzi – if you want to defend Nick, perhaps you two should have an empirical consult (get your facts straight) before you roll back this way. I’ll be here. It doesn’t have to get ugly, but you need to be sure about what you read and what you think you read and what you think you know.

  43. What Temple says- “none of the content of this post is based on “race.” It may be based on white supremacism/racism, but it is not based on race. If you can understand the distinction, we can continue, otherwise you may be wasting your time – and mine.”

    – I obviously need an explanation on the distinction between “racism” and “race”. Please provide, at the least, a brief description of the difference between the two. I would love to continue this discussion, because I think it will be informative. Also, please explain how “none of the content of this post is based on ‘race’.”

    Was the passage PRINTED IN RED supposed to signify something?…
    ” The issue is the split perceptions in the out-sized outrage of “whites” with respect to Black violations of law, code or creed, while simultaneously turning a blind eye and deaf ear to “white” violations of the same. The issue is the manner in which the court of public opinion reinforces (or at least seeks to reinforce) the idea that Black folk are 2nd class citizens.”

    Please explain the difference between “race” and “racism” in this highlighted statement of your original message…

  44. “Race” is the mythical political construct. It’s the arbitrary and capricious divider of people. It was created over a century ago by Europeans (also a political construct – not a “true continent”) for specific political purposes.

    Racism/white supremacy is the system which informs and enforces our notions of race.

    Most people conflate race with racism and racism with prejudice. These “things” are not the same – though they are highly correlated. The Vick Divide is not about race – but the divide is about white supremacism.

    Really it’s quite simply. I’m not being obtuse or semantical, but I’m being specific for a purpose.

  45. In the simplest terms, “Race” is idea…”Racism is political power practice.” We’ve been taught that Race is Biology…and Racism is Idea – and that it’s universal and accessible to everyone. That is not an empirically defensible position.

  46. you type racism/white supremacy like they are joined at the hip.

    Yes there are people who believe in white supremacy.
    Yes there are racists…WHITE AND BLACK.

    Ok, let me ask you this. How is the mike vick situation about white supremacy. HOW? I don’t get it. Don’t tell me “you have to walk in a black mans shoes to get it”. That is a cop out. That is a statement people make when they can’t articulate their point so they just say thier point isn’t understandable because we aren’t black. Mike Vick is a huge megastar superathelete. Thats why there is so much media coverage. Sure the FBI got involved because they are trying to make an example of him. But it’s not because he’s black, it’s to send a message to EVERY DOG FIGHTER, that this is a serious offense and even a POPULAR athlete who makes millions can be punished.

    And your wrong-
    White supremacy has nothing to do with “OUR NATION”. It is the belief that people of ANGLO-Saxon White decent are a higher species of human being. This view is held by ignorant whites all around the world, not just in america.

    Racism- is the prejudice beliefs that other races are inferior, and ALL ethnic groups have racists. I’ve heard that minorities can’t be racists. That is simply not true.

    We would both agree that racism will never end until ALL racism is stamed out. From all ends. I honestly have talked to white racists and debunked their ideas and argued with them. Have you argued with black racists? Doubt it. When whites bring up black racists its not deflecting from our own racists. But we are simply saying that “yes we have a problem with some of our people that needs to be corrected, and so do you” It will never be fixed until both sides are fixed.

    Back to the town meeting. The only valid point is that Vick is being overly crucified in the media. I’m sick of the vick story. It’s because he’s mike vick not because he’s black. I think we should talk about other things. But it has to embarrass us as americans that a huge population of people is wearing “free mike vick” t-shirts and supporting him simply because he’s black.

    But this thing goes deeper than us white folks realize. I talked with a guy on my football team in college that was wearing a “free TONY T t shirt” with his cousins picture on the shirt. I asked what he was in jail for. He said “selling crack.” I asked why are you adement about “FREEING HIM” when he broke an obvious law and is doing his time. The argument is that black kids resort to selling drugs because of the desparity in thier economic situation and the government is just trying to jail black kids. This is astounding. Nobody wants to take responsibility for thier actions. Is the black community still suffering from the effects of slavery, yes. We aren’t that far removed from that era. But at some point you have to take responsibility for your actions.

    Another thing. The whole crowd cheered when a BLACK panel member said that not snitching is part of the HIP HOP code. Once again I’ll tell you I love rap. I listen to all music, I listen to luda, TI, Outkast, trick daddy, all of them. But i dont get the “dont snitch” mentality. I would actually understand more if your not snitching if crimes are committed against WHITES. I wouldn’t agree but i would understand why it’s happening. But the black community doesnt want to snitch on people poisioning and killing thier OWN PEOPLE. It makes no sense.

  47. That was a bunch of usless Sh*#. The media blew this out of proportion and people believe what they see in the media way to much. Vick screwed up and is paying for it. Other than being dragged through the media, he is getting fair punishment. Vick has been my favorite player since he was a freshman at VT. He will always be my favorite player, but i have to accept the fact that he broke the law and may never play again, atleast not at the level he once did. As far as Segragation and heavy handed white supremecist and the rest of your racial B.S. cut the crap. You as well as mass media try to turn these things into racial fiascos when in all actuality what is happening has nothing to do with race at all. You are a complainer, a creator of problems. People like you will never lead any thing or anyone. You will always be insignificant eyes of history.

  48. Nick – if you knew what you were talking about and demonstrated the slightest capacity for reading comprehension, I’d move past the first two sentences. I’ll stop there until you step your game up. I appreciate that you’re trying to work through some of this stuff – but please don’t assume I’ve said things I didn’t say.

    If can’t see the connection between the two [racism/white supremacism] (an easily demonstrable and quantifiable connection), there’s nothing to talk about. It means you probably don’t know the history – and have never had to know. In this area, with respect to our knowledge – we are not peers…I don’t say that to be smug (this time). I say that to dispel you of the notion that “racism” is merely an idea that all “races” participate in actively – and that this really boils down to opinions vs. verifiable, quantifiable work/practice. If that’s over your head or suggests too much research need be invested, you’re probably onto something. We are not peers – and I won’t do the heavy lifting for you. Personally, I find that few “whites” can HEAR this from Black people – they need white sources. I suggest Rachel’s Tavern or She’ll actually walk you through the paces. I won’t.

    You are on the edge of a deeper empirical discussion – and if you want to share opinions about how everyone does this or that, get ta steppin’. You’re better off at I don’t dally in the relativism of racism. Read, understand and do the math or move along. Honestly, it could be several months before you return. And our conversation would be greatly enriched.

    Johnfree79 (I guess that’s the year you were born or graduated from somewhere.)

    I see you don’t read well. I’ll ascribe that to your youth if you like – although there should be no correlation. You are also given to ad hominem attacks. It’s amateurish. Who has the time.

    BTW, there isn’t a single complaint in the ORIGINAL POST…not one. You’d be better off re-reading or getting in the wind. Plenty of folks have complained about this entire scenario…that’s not the case here. Move along. As for the irrelevance of the position, you’d be surprised to find the exact same position in Dr. Martin Luther King’s last book. Happy hunting on that one.


    Nick – one other thing…when you say “the mike vick situation” what aspect of that are you talking about – because I’ve never said his “situation” was about white supremacy. I said the DIVIDE was about white supremacy.

    Now I’ve said that 3 times…I won’t say it again. You’ll simply have to focus. Vick is not the DIVIDE. The DIVIDE is not Michael Vick.

  49. Temple, you do a lot of talking down to people in this thread which doesn’t help your case, if you even have one. You’ve confused everyone from the beginning by talking about a town hall meeting about Michael Vick and then pretending it had little to do with him. By starting a debate on white supremacy and pretending that black racism is a non-issue. You’ve deflected reasonable arguments repeatedly with a boring mantra of “you just don’t understand so I don’t wanna explain it to you.” Come on man. Don’t have a blog if you’re gonna go and play games like that. In fact, your portion of the thread has contributed almost nothing useful. Instead, like the guy in Good Will Hunting, you’ve pointed us to a bunch of books from which all your semantics are derived. I’m tired of your pedantic posts. I’m out.

  50. N.O. Native:
    You wrote: “You’ve confused everyone from the beginning by talking about a town hall meeting about Michael Vick and then pretending it had little to do with him.”
    — Take a look at the first four responses. There isn’t a bit of confusion among any of them. Everyone is not confused. Let’s move on.

    You wrote: “By starting a debate on white supremacy and pretending that black racism is a non-issue. You’ve deflected reasonable arguments repeatedly with a boring mantra of “you just don’t understand so I don’t wanna explain it to you.”
    — As of yet, there is no debate on white supremacy. I didn’t start a debate. I made a statement which still has not been addressed, let alone refuted. I haven’t pretended “black racism is a non-issue” because it has not been defined. When you say “black racism” what do YOU mean? As for the “reasonable arguments,” I’ve not merely deflected them, I’ve dismissed them outright because each constitutes a logical fallacy of one sort or other with respect to the point under consideration. If posters come around to the point, then we can proceed. Nick is coming closet to this. This is by no means an attempt to obfuscate. It is a persistent, determined effort to stay focused.

    You wrote: “Come on man. Don’t have a blog if you’re gonna go and play games like that. In fact, your portion of the thread has contributed almost nothing useful. Instead, like the guy in Good Will Hunting, you’ve pointed us to a bunch of books from which all your semantics are derived.”
    — As I have no intention of doing heavy lifting in deconstructing logical fallacies, you are absolutely correct. That is as it should be. The post, not my responses, should be the focus.

    It’s probably best that you go at this point. It’s not that there is no room for your contributions. It may be too soon.

  51. How little do they see what really is, who frame their hasty judgment upon that which seems.

    What we see depends mainly on what we look for.

    Some will never learn anything because they understand everything too soon.

    Let us not dream that reason can ever be popular. Passions, emotions, may be made popular, but reason remains the property of the few.

    Arguing with a fool proves there are two.

  52. While we’re quoting dead guys:

    “Divide and rule, the politician cries; unite and lead, is watchword of the wise.”

    Get back to stormfront before the weather changes. From the tiger’s tender touch to the pink swastika…the winds of change are blowing – and so are you.

  53. Temple – I see you’ve taken a introductory logic class, congratulations. Good for you. As for the 79, maybe you should be a codebreaker, your skills are superior.

    The point still stands you, that mass media and apparently you as well, have made it your mission to turn this into something it is not. There is nothing more to this story than a Man who happened to be one of the most identifiable figures in sports made some bad choices and now he is paying for them. There are those of us who would like to see Vick pay the consequences and then have a fair shot at returning to the game, but with the help of yourself and the media trying to maximize on one man’s misfortunes, that road becomes more unpassable every day. As for your original post and my original response, perhaps there is no straightforward complaint on your part. In all honesty, i posted my response to make a shot at you for using so many words to say so little. Your arguments, if you can even call them that, have no merit. But carry on Mr. Logic class! At least you did get something out of your education, too bad you are doing nothing with it.

  54. Thanks John.

    The only problem with your posts is that you’ve ascribed things to me – again – which are not in evidence.

    You wrote: “There are those of us who would like to see Vick pay the consequences and then have a fair shot at returning to the game, but with the help of yourself and the media trying to maximize on one man’s misfortunes, that road becomes more unpassable every day.”
    — If the original post affirms that the media has gone too far AND is clouding the issue, how then am I (in your mind) linked to that same media and trying to “maximize on one man’s misfortunes”?

    You wrote: “As for your original post and my original response, perhaps there is no straightforward complaint on your part.”
    — Thank you.

    You wrote: “In all honesty, i posted my response to make a shot at you for using so many words to say so little.”
    — Okay. I’ll leave that up to matters of taste. Other posters understood those “extra words” and found them valuable.

    You wrote: “Your arguments, if you can even call them that, have no merit.”
    — And what would those merit-less arguments be? You were not alone in having trouble perceiving the actual argument. You should find that just a bit peculiar. You perceived complaints when there were none. You perceived a defense of Vick when there was none. How did that happen? If it happened to you, could it have happened to someone else with less savvy than you? Could other Americans have been duped?
    — What is the “argument” I’m making – and what about it lacks merit? If you don’t know, it’s off to the discard pile.

    You wrote: “At least you did get something out of your education, too bad you are doing nothing with it.”
    — Isn’t that just a tad personal and presumptive. Whatever works ’79.

  55. Temple –

    The last dead man’s quote is why I am outta here. Good luck with all of “this”. Whatever it is.

    I will share this with you before I leave. It is something my wise great grandmother told me before “I went off to school” (as she liked to say)………”Erik, the bigger the words, the less the person really knows. The smart person can talk to everyone in a common language. They don’t need big words in order to prove their intelligence.”

    Keep that in mind as you go through life. It will do you some good. I have also learned that the silent one in the room is usually the smartest.

    We make our own way in life. There are two types of people in this world….People that make excuses and people that make a way……that is the bottom line.

  56. Erikkk,

    So let me get this “straight.” For the record, you’re the white supremacist at post #30 with the anti-African ahistorical comments who proceeds to quotes Goethe @#62, then runs away from big words to the refuge of his great grandmother’s advice.

    That’s the weakest thing I’ve seen in a long time. I was raised by my great grand mother and I never invoke her lessons as I backtracked out an argument in which I asserted an entire “race” of people were essentially worthless. It’s best that you leave. When ancestors roll over in their graves, none of us can be pleased.

    And, as JohnFree admitted there are no complaints or excuses in my work. You have imagined a world of complaint, vindictiveness, excuses and apologetics from others – but it’s just you. Imagine that. You’ve complained about big words…complained about people defending Vick…complained about Black contributions to America and the world…and so on and so forth.

    It’s been one big gripe session for you. Let it go Erikkk.

  57. Temple, I didn’t know you attracted all these white trolls on your site, White people get worked up about black althletes making too much money, dogs but 3,000 black people die in New Orleans, and the government ignores it for 5 days (which is a human rights violation) Phil Spector gets off for murder and nary a peep or outrage from these same whites. Like I said before White Amerikkkans have no morality whatsoever when it comes to Blacks.

    And to you dumb white Muthafuckas smoking the crystal meth arguing about Jesse and Al, they both sided with the Humane Society you dumb white bastards, and as typical of you dumb fucks you blame Hip – Hop (a culture not a music) lack a families (the white single birth rate is at 50% and rising) and everything else. Or my favorite “It’s the past racism doesn’t exist anymore, Well let’s look at 12 years of bombing Iraq which had one of the healthliest birthrates in the world and a pretty good education system (even under Saadam) prior to our invasion of the country and bombing now they have cancer, death and diease thanks to WHITE AMERIKKKANS SPREADING DEMOCRACY!!!

    You white people kill me (not literally) with your utter hypocrisy but then you can’t grasp why the Arab world hates Americans so much and the now White Americans through their encessant denials to the contray have permanmently damaged race relations in this country with African- Americans. This is not about about Micheal Vick, dogfighting or any crime, it’s about white americans sense of their own entitlment and ‘black guilt trips everytime someone black brings up legitimate debate about race and white attitudes.

    I take the Malcolm X postion in dealing with White Americans which is the correct one, Dr. King realized a year before he died that white americans like the ones who are ranting and raving like lunatics on this site are “unconcious racists” and will always be in denial on their attitudes.. Temple brothas and sistas the best thing we can do is separate ourselves from these racists and develop build alliance of brotherhood with people who truly want a brotherhood of humanity.

    Oh and to you dumb white american fucks, on the 70% black rate, the stat figures in married couples only and counts any female who has a child at 14 years old as ‘unmarried’ . and marriage has dropped in this country amongst all americans to under 50 percent. The government does not count cohabitation or if the father is involved it counts marriages only.

    i.e. it’s illegal to get married in most states expect certian parts of the south until you are 18. And your obession with Sharpton, Jackson, and Farahkan is almost obscence like they are going to convince 18 black males to fly planes into buildingslolol. Temple, I truly think the majority of African- Americans in this country hate White Americans and it aint because of the three amigos, slavery or Jim Crow it’s not the past it’s the recent present.

  58. E –

    Trolls don’t stay for long. I demand a bit of intellectual rigor that precludes back and forth about red herrings. Folks leave because I won’t engage them on things I am either not arguing or unconcerned with. White supremacy, as an institution which shapes cultural values is “remote” but it should be obvious.

    I’ve checked out a few sites on Phil Spector. Folks are basically laughing at this guy. There is no outrage. Check my post. Check the whole scene with the police. It’s been a comedy for many people that a young woman lost her life.

    And folks justify their lack of outrage here by saying Spector’s time is passed. Situational ethics are a bitch.

  59. Your insults do not make me angry. I can’t belive I am getting sucked back into this but it beats the crap out of work – for now. As for the reference of “stormwatch” I have no idea what you are talking about. All I know is that whenever the news is on…..90% of the crime that is being reported is due to blacks (atleast in my area). If it is not that then it is about the latest protest involving sharpton or jessie j. It appears to me that the biggest racism this country faces today is from a faction in the black population. If you think what I said was white supremacy then you are too easily offended.

    I see it on my way from work and everytime I go through a certain section of town…..children having children and rampant crime. But don’t ask me,,,,,since I am the big racist….ask my wife…..she’s the one that works in the neonatal unit. She can tell you all about it.

    Also….I use to live in one of the roughest neighborhoods in Rochester NY and worked for a black man in the Landscaping business. He was a real class act. Yeah…that’s big time racism right there!!!…That and my love of Robert Nesta Marley….yeah…I am a real black hater!! LOL ….But…whatever you want to believe about me is fine.
    Also – when I was talking about the big words….that did not mean that you had to go back to third grade for an insult. LOL

    Now – I actually have to get something done at work. Urgent unfortunately.

    Good luck with your perceptions. Unfortunately…the real world is what it is.

  60. Erik…

    You should know that I have a thick skin. I don’t offend easy and I don’t believe that your STATEMENT constitutes white supremacy. I believe it is informed by white supremacist beliefs which may or may be your own.

    If you can understand that, we might be able to make some serious headway. Think about before responding.

  61. Erik the condesending whiteboy with his love of Bob Marley, his best black friend wooo pee I loved Michelanglo does that make me tolerant? and dumbass you were dropping something in your post a lot of black names and your puesdo anti- racism. Black People know when white americans are genuine about racial issues and we embrace them in the spirt of brotherhood like Amy Goodman, Howard Zinn, Peter Edelman, Tim Wise and Susan Sarandan. the rest of you are “lying ass crackers’ and we see through your phony consternations of ‘I am not a racist but …..

    And yes, you are bigot at least embrace it

  62. I will leave out the “you wrote” when referring to your statements; i am assuming you can remember what you wrote.

    Personal and presumptive? Yes it was, as you have been throughout this post.

    I’ll take a step back, so to say, because perhaps we are missing eachothers points. My attack on your original post was exactly that; An attack. You defend your argument from my attack by saying, in general, what’s wrong with it? Well…. maybe you didnt understand what i was intending to address. So, here it is simplified. People, like yourself, are responsible for turning this event into more than what it is. My stance is that the mass media does it to create attention ultimately resulting in more dollars. The media’s primary objective is not to redistibute the truth to the masses, it is not to present subject matter which requires an above average intelligence. Simply, because the mass audience that gathers there knowledge and develops there personal perceptions towards life and the world from mass media, are people with below average intelligence. My correlation between you and the mass media is that you too are assisting in creating issues out of irrelevant facts. Your, motivation for doing so: i can only assume. So this is where i am once again presumptive and personal. You do it for attention, and you do it because of the type of person you are. You are a creator of problems, not one who can resolve problems. The problem with people who create such issues is that those who become leaders and have the ability to resolve issues, spend more time resolving the issues that are created by people like you than they do on the issues that will progress us as a society, as human beings.

    Obviously, you are not responsible for creating the irrelevant issues pertaining to the Michael Vick’s situation, but you are whole heartedly contributing to them. Hence, you are part of the problem, not part of a solution. But thank you for all the great words, and lengthy paragraphs.

    I take that back. If i am missing the point in your original post, elaborate for me. Don’t just say: oh, well you missed my point because i’m smarter than most. I am not perfect by any stretch of any imagination, so perhaps i did misinterpret your meaning. Though keep in mind, it may not be your specific main idea that is under debate here.

  63. Eric Daniels –
    Lying ass crackers? And your calling me a bigot!!!! LMFAO. Oh the hypocrisy!!. This is why you make no headway on this issue. Because alot of white americans are tired of the BS…..your post as a GREAT EXAMPLE. If you want a REAL debate….and not a bunch of ass kissing “crackers” that don’t want to offend you…then we can talk. Until then, enjoy YOUR bigotry and narrow minded view.

    It’s funny that you use the same words on me that get YOU so offended…..let’s see…..white boy and cracker… bout if I called u black boy or nigger? The difference is…..I don’t get offended by it… do, Now that is hypocrisy in its highest form.

    Also – I never said he was my best friend. He was my boss and a class act. He was my friend as well tough.

    If you look at any of my posts…I never used those words. You did though. I just spoke about what I see. You speak from your ass. The place where your head should be.

    Thanks for proving my point.

    “Who the cap fit…they shall wear it”.

  64. Before you go an affiliate past leaders of this country to Racistis, pedophile loving, wrestling enthusiaists, as at appears you do with all other white people, (correct me if i’m wrong) Consider some of the things that go on outside of this country. Do you remember why we went to Mogadishu in 1993? It was to stop a genocide. A black warlord was cutting off all food supply to people who were starving to death. And who cares that the warlord was a black man, we would have been there just the same had it been some deranged white man (WWII). My point is, there are alot of sick twisted deranged people in this world, yes many of them are white (especially in America) but just the same goes for Africa, where the majority of twisted people there are black. And so on and so on depending where you are in the world. But who cares, the fact of the matter is there are good people and bad people, and as long as there are bad people there will be race wars, religious wars, social wars…. Pointing fingers, making accusations, and placing blame gets us no where. I don’t know what the answers are, nor do i claim that i will ever have them. What i do know is that the first step to resolving a problem is to not make it bigger.

  65. John:

    I don’t know if you’ll bother to read this link, but if you do it will be pretty tough to square with the notion the US went to Somalia for humanitarian purposes.

    Believe what you will. It’s a choice. By the way, the US did not enter WWII because of a deranged white man in Europe. Surely you know that some of Americas greatest, wealthiest citizens supported and adored that “deranged white man.” FDR had other things on his mind – and he pimped Winston Churchill unceremoniously for quite some time in order to extract the concessions he required. Don’t let the short mustache fool you. Nations don’t fight for “principles” and “ideals” and “values.” They fight for resources. The US created the motive conditions for the Japanese to engage them militarily in pursuit of oil. The process began in the 20’s. The Japanese bit, much the way China will bite, and they became a satellite. And now, the Japanese by oil through holding extensive depreciating dollar reserves. Enough on that…

    As for the notion of sick and deranged folks being everywhere – that may be true, but in Africa, those folks are solicited, supported and preserved by the US and the West who have a vested interest in maintaining kleptocracies. The list of corrupt leaders who have had the unbridled support of the West is never-ending. And Somalia’s Barre is right there on the list. The US and Europe have routinely killed ethical African leaders intent on doing what was best for the common good. The US didn’t really care about Aidid.

    Now we come to the payoff:
    “the first step to resolving a problem is to not make it bigger.” Is it to dissect the problem – or is to confirm that the problem you perceive is actually the problem?
    My question to you is, “What’s the problem?” Please don’t say “race relations.” Anything but “race relations.”

  66. WOW
    I’m done.
    I’ve stayed on point, and tried to argue with some random guy on a random website i ran accross. Temple, good luck buddy. Just to let you know, im not racist, nor do peg all people of any race because of the actions or views of one person. If you weren’t embarassed by the actions of the crowd at the town hall meeting, i feel sorry for you. Many many many african americans here in ST LOUIS (which is a racially divided city in its own right) called in to sports talk shows the next day and said they were really really embarrassed by the crowd there. Blind support for anyone is dangerous and ignorant.

    To the guy eric daniels. You are an idiot. A black racist. You call white people cracker, but wonder why they call you a nigger. Im sure you will say they called you nigger first. But evil on their end, doesnt make evil on your end right. And my attack on hip hop was just that- If your heros are people who brag about taking over city blocks or corners to sell drugs, or shooting people for messing with you or your business, then i can see why a lot of people in the “hip hop culture” both white and black would support mike vick. If you think TI is a swell guy, then why would someone who “just dog fights” be worse. I understand why kids who listen to rap wouldnt think what vick did was bad. To them, dod fighting isn’t shit. THey look up to guys who brag about selling crack and shooting people.
    And for your “crystal meth” comment. OK white drug addicts smoke crystal meth. Black drug addicts smoke crack. Actually both whites and blacks do both. So i dont see what your point was there.
    I like to debate issues of all kinds. But debating with people like you is like banging your head against a brick wall. You will never be open minded or really listen to what the person you are talking to is trying to say. I’m out.

  67. I’ve read about this story and none of the black kids in this story are going to be charged with hate crimes.

    Temple im done arguing with or posting here. I will come back to see what you think about this.

    If you are truly open minded and not a black racist, then you should agree that if these kids, who are obviously pussies, should be charged with hate crimes. If not, then what the hell is a hate crime. Is a hate crime only when a white commits the offense. Yes there are many many hate crimes perputrated by whites and evey time i say throw the book at them.]

    What do you think about this specific case here temple.
    You wont respond. You will keep posting like you didnt even see this like you did before.

  68. eric daniels

    you must have gotton picked on and beat up a lot in high school. What a joke. Call people whiteboys and crackers while trying to call them a racist. You are the epidomy of ignorance. Go away, and for your sake don’t engage in discussions on race or racism or “white supremacy” cause you are no different from the people you are “fighting against” and you will look every bit as dumb as you did on this web site

  69. And I thought I was a Virgo, and it took 3 posts to make your point about me being a black racist lolol (It should have only took one you idiot that NCLB law isn’t working I see) hey you stupid white american piece of dogshit, I have not denied anyone a job because they were white ,or used the power of my office (that was the Jena D.A. and school superintent) to collude with the local law enforcement and not use equal punishment or ignored dying men, women children and elderly and allowed them to die for 5 days by a politcal party (New Orleans that’s a human rights offense punishable by life in prison or death) nor I have violated the voting rights of whites citizens by using the police like GOP did to black ones in Florida.

    I am surprised you could put together a complete sentence, but to quote my favorite religious scholar’ ain’t that special’. I can see that Reagan neo- con education really helped for your dumb ass. As much as I wished I was a racist as you assert ( I would have outdone Eichman and Mengale) most White Americans are too stupid to waste even a spatula much less a bullet on. And Nick learn how to spell ,you whites are always ranting about how smart and gifted your race is, now I realize why you people love dogs, they are truly smarter than most of you jerkoffs.

    the word is epitome. Nick,

  70. Nick and Erikk, I assume white people call me ‘nigger’ like you two idiots did becasue you people enjoy calling black people that word. Temple please these whiteboys and trolls are about as intelligent as the mental patients in ‘One flew over the Cookoo’s nest ” Where’s Nurse Ratchet when you need her?

  71. Eric Daniels –
    I never called you any of those words sir. If you will actually read my post carefully, I stated those words to you as an example of what you called me. I never directed them toward you…I said how would you feel if I called you blah blah blah (you know? – like you called me). Also – you should look up the word bigot sometime. That might help you make a real argument one day.
    I am in total agreement with Nick – this argument is logically flawed. Debating racism with a racist – not much is gonna come from it. Especially a racist that doesn’t even know what the words racist or bigot mean. I will admit that in my first post I flamed a bit and probably went over the top a little. However, it is frustrating to me to see the black race being brought down by some of its own people…..and yet they do not want to share any of the blame. The faction wants to blame the whites, society, etc. Note – I said faction, not the entire race.
    Like I said in a previous post ……there are two kinds of people in this world…..the ones that make a way….and the ones that make excuses. This is for black, white, purple, blue, or green. It makes no difference.
    Eric Daniels – you are part of the problem, not the solution.
    Yes – there are white racists out there – just like there are black, japanese, jewish, etc. racists. THEY ARE IDIOTS. They are not keeping you down – YOU ARE. Until you realize this – you will never make any head way.
    I still think that Bill Cosby nailed it when he made that speech that got some black people upset (like AS and JJ). The truth usually does that to people that don’t want to hear it. I am with Nick – I am outta here FOR GOOD THIS TIME.

    “Sorry I ruined your black panther party” – Forrest Gump

  72. Nick…Back up at #59, I wrote:
    You are on the edge of a deeper empirical discussion – and if you want to share opinions about how everyone does this or that, get ta steppin’. You’re better off at I don’t dally in the relativism of racism.”

    You pasting of a video qualifies as precisely that.

    The question of what qualifies as a hate crime varies from state to state.

    Surely you are familiar with this case…

    The authorities there have not pressed “hate crime” charges to date because the standard for hate crimes is not merely based on race, but on the specific application of that violence. Specific applications can include voter intimidation, job site violence, etc.

    Representatives of the NAACP, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and the local Black Ministerial Alliance met with Logan County prosecutor Brian Abraham to express their concern that so far, neither state nor federal hate crimes charge have been applied.”

    It’s not as simple as you’d like it.

    In Louisiana (re: Jena 6), it is worth noting that no “whites” have been charged with hate crimes. That includes those accused of beating up Robert Bailey at a party and the person accused of pointing a shotgun at Robert Bailey.

    It is also unclear if the basis of the beatdown was “white” skin, per se, or the fact that witnesses accused the ‘victim’ of initiating a conflict by bragging about Mr. Bailey being beaten up by a group of students. In other words, I would imagine that if a pink, purple or green child bragged to the friends of someone about that friend being brutalized, they could logically expect some retribution.

    With that said, you’ll need to step aside from the moral relativism if you hope to get anywhere. Your premises and arguments are essentially emotive and qualitative. We’ll never get anywhere that way.

  73. Nick @77:

    I didn’t watch the town hall meeting. In any event, I doubt that I would have been embarrassed. In order for me to be embarrassed, I would have to believe that somehow the actions of those individuals should be extrapolated to ME or to a broader collective. That you believe I should have been embarrassed reveals your own steep grounding in white supremacy. Were you embarrassed? How did the responses of the crowd reflect on you? Did their actions not reflect on you? Confession is good for soul. I thank you for coming clean.

    “White supremacy” is a systemic approach to power and relationships which takes no prisoners. You’ve been consumed in ways you cannot perceive. You can argue all you like, but if this discourse were to continue, you’d be shocked at the extent to which you’ve cooperatively swallowed the Dragon’s Dust.

  74. Temple —
    i’ll read the link, though it will be later. this will be quick so if i am not thorough or am vague, i apologize now. It is true nations stand to gain something for war/conflict. It must be decided before hand whether it would be benenficial to engage in the event. We would do absolutly no good if we weakended our selves by entering into such conflicts. But you have to remember these wars are fought by more than just political leaders. Try telling all of the WWII vets who lost brothers, friends, loved ones, etc. that they were fighting for a nations profit. I will withdraw from commenting on Somala until i read your link, but i know there are genearally atleast two sides to every story, and in most cases the truth lies in not one side but across both.

    the problem:
    well since this all began ( our conversation ) with what is going on with Michael Vick that is what i will address. The problem is what is going on with Michael Vick has apparently turned into a racial issue. The thing is, his whole ordeal has nothing to do with race. Atleast, not until people turn it into that.

    I’ll admit, people have over reacted and there have been outrageous ignorance led protests against vick b/c he killed dogs, but to me, media is responsible for that for constantly portraying a degrading image of Vick.

    After reading your initial post on the “DIvide” it is just frustrating that this has turned into a racial issue. The actions brought against him were not racially driven. If anything they were driven by his fame and wealth. I know YOU are not defending Vick nor are you claiming what is happening is becasue of his color (am i correct?) but it does appear that you are fueling the fire for there to be a racial conflict. Again please correct me if i am mis interpreting.

    What went on at the Town Meeting? Perhaps i am missing something with the “Vick Divide”.

  75. Wow! Not that I expect blogs to really incite thoughtful discussion but this thread has gone from altogether missing the point to everyone banging their heads against walls. One guy is mostly just calling people names. One person is preaching about a town hall meeting he didn’t watch. Actually, I guess he’s really preaching about some notion of “white supremacy” which I get the impression he’s never actually met in real life, only in books. Come to think of it, I have no idea what he’s trying to say because it seems to change with every other post. Fun to read though.

  76. embrrassed in atlanta I will remember that when 10 white cops pull guns at me on my job . that I am imagining things about white supremacy I read in a book. And why should black atlantans or the city be embrrassed because they are tired of white denials about their racist attitudes and media bias against black althletes? Oh racism is over because MLK “had a dream” and it’s come true.

    Most Black people are now seeing past that white B.S. “you people’ are spewing it’s called ‘Black Guilt’.

  77. “Embarrassed for ATL” is the same as New Orleans Native…

    It’s too late to get smug about “thoughtful discussion.” You wanted to talk about Vick’s ethics and that’s not the topic. This is the wrong place for you. Your cognitive skills are not up to par and you’ve demonstrated an unwillingness to address the real issue with ESPN’s decision to have a town hall meeting about an issue which is clearly inflammatory – and was sure to garner ratings.

    You’re actually silly enough to imply I needed to watch the show to know its outcome.

    It’s time you moved along. Keep it native and save you embarrassment for your self. ATL could do without your patronizing condescencion.

  78. Just a note to other posters:

    Check this comment out: “Actually, I guess he’s really preaching about some notion of “white supremacy” which I get the impression he’s never actually met in real life, only in books.”

    I’m wondering where that comes from. Aside from the fact that the word preaching is used derisively, there is the implication that “white supremacy” is actually beyond my experience. Hmm. Interesting.

    How does someone guess I might be beyond that experience? Do I live in a vacuum? Am I beyond the financial, political, cultural, and military reach of “white supremacy”?

    Just because you have a keyboard does not mean it should be used for anything other than hitting yourself over the head.

  79. John:

    “Try telling all of the WWII vets who lost brothers, friends, loved ones, etc. that they were fighting for a nations profit.”

    I wouldn’t have any problem telling that to those veterans. In fact, a good deal of them who’ve studied war and its causes already know this. For the others who’d prefer the memories of childhood as a buffer against the realities of adulthood, there is little I could offer.

    There is an excellent documentary featuring General Schwarzkopf making exactly the same points. Perhaps it would be better for delusional old men to argue with him. His standing is certainly greater than mine.

    I think you need to be specific in stating what you think the problem is, at bottom. “What is going on with Vick has apparently turned into a racial issue.” When you say “what is going on” – do you mean his arrest, the media coverage (volume vs. bias), the responses by Blacks vs. responses by “whites.” What exactly do you mean? All of it – some of it – something else?

    As you respond, please bear in mind that my initial post was only concerned with a SINGLE aspect of all of that – the outsized reaction of whites to perceived and actual events of “Black criminality” vs. perceived and actual events of “white” criminality.

    So, let ‘er rip.

    Let me ask you this. Are you familiar with the Taylor Law or the practice of “canned hunting”?

  80. Eric Daniels – I did not say that I thought you hadn’t experienced racism in your life. In fact I did not say anything directly about you. But in fact, if you must know, I was referring to you as the one who resorted to simply calling people names. I don’t doubt that racism has touched your life profoundly. But nor do I feel sorry about it. What reason do I have to feel sorry? If it is because I have had some success in life, then I’ll tell you God’s blessings and my family, not white supremacy, has helped me to where I stand today.

    Temple – Look, in my first post all I tried to do what present an alternative view for why Vick was singled out for such a thing as a “town hall meeting” on ESPN that did not rely on the tired reasoning that he happens to be black. Of course I didn’t enter into the inane discussion you tried to direct which started off with the premise that white supremacy led to all the hoopla over this dogfighting charade. There is no point when you’ve already given a premise that can neither be refuted nor proven and can only lead one to a singular conclusion. Debate 101.

    “Your cognitive skills are not up to par.” Wow that hurts. I guess I’m dumb and that’s why UGA is giving me a PHD in chemistry. I’m sorry but condescending personal attacks are not what I expect from someone who claims to be so enlightened as you. But I’m sure that helps the African American people a lot, to have pricks like you pretending to fight battles for them.

    Thanks for calling me out, but it’s not like by changing my blog name I was trying to hide the fact that I was N.O. native or “embarrassed for ATL.” I didn’t change my email address or anything. Does it even matter who I am? I thought discussion was the point of the blog, not scoring intellectual points (BTW, that makes it Me 1, You 0). I was simply agreeing with one of the posters who said they felt Atlantans should be embarrassed by what occurred in the town hall meeting. Please stop saying you’re not embarrassed when you don’t even know what happened in the meeting. Of course you’re not embarrassed because in this case you’re the one who doesn’t know what happened.

    And just because you own a keyboard and a decent vocabulary doesn’t mean you have to be self-righteous. But when you act self-righteous, realize that what you say comes off as insincere, and that is why I questioned whether you had ever really experienced white supremacy. I apologize if that was off base, but it was the impression you gave.

  81. Are you comparing canned hunting to dogfighting? Or are you comparing the fact that canned hunting is not against the law yet to the fact that dogfighting is? While I can understand that the Humane Society is against canned hunting, I don’t think it is even close to dogfighting. For one thing, dogfighting involves torture and abuse long before the actual death of the dog, in order to work the dog into a state of rage that can only be quenched by tearing the throat out of another dog. So, I think we can all agree that doesn’t happen in hunting, even in canned hunting. As far as it being legal or not, it does seem like political pressure is heading toward making it illegal, at which point, people will be prosecuted for engaging in it. Is there really any more to be said?

    My limited brain also fails to grasp the link between the Taylor Law against public workers protesting and the Michael Vick debate. Please connect those dots for us.

  82. “Please stop saying you’re not embarrassed when you don’t even know what happened in the meeting. Of course you’re not embarrassed because in this case you’re the one who doesn’t know what happened.”

    Are you embarrassed? Why would I be? What makes you think I don’t know what happened at the meeting – just because I didn’t watch it? You watched it and don’t know what happened.

    You think I believe Vick was the subject of a Town Hall becaue he was Black? Where’d you get that from? I never said it – and don’t believe it. That’s why this takes time – because you’ve made statements which are neither defensible nor logical – and you just don’t stop, and you just don’t stop.

    Take a couple of points away from yourself on that one.

  83. “There is no point when you’ve already given a premise that can neither be refuted nor proven and can only lead one to a singular conclusion.”

    That’s not correct. The statement I made was not theoretical as therefore contingent and falsifiability and verifiability. It is a statement which can be subjected to empirical testing and rejected if evidence to the contrary suggests it be dismissed.

    Your debate 101 class and my debate 101 class were held in different buildings. That’s UGA for ya. Don’t blow up the lab.

  84. The points comment was a joke, btw. I watched it and don’t know what happened? So not only can I neither read nor understand things without your help, but I clearly can’t see and hear what happens on television without a person who never watched it telling me. Are you freaking kidding me???
    Clearly I don’t have the comprehension necessary to understand sentences like this one:
    “The statement I made was not theoretical as therefore contingent and falsifiability and verifiability.” Eh, mate? Are you even speaking English or just trying to see how many words you can get into a sentence with 10+ letters?
    And apparently you don’t read too well either. I never said I took debate at UGA. But UGA does happen to be one of the top schools in the nation for chemistry, so please refrain from the generalities. They don’t do you much good. I also don’t think you should be embarrassed about the town hall meeting. You can’t be embarrassed for something you completely look away from. I am, because I saw it and I am embarrassed for Atlanta, for Georgia, for our country, and for Michael Vick. I doubt he was too happy about the behavior going on in that room, given his acceptance of his punishment and hopefully sincere desire to reject his former ways.

    “Don’t blow up the lab?” Gotta love the amazing insight!

  85. Temple —
    i have desperately tried to keep an open mind after initially ripping your original post. I thought that by being sincere we could possibly have a decent conversation. After reading your other posts I have determined that you are basically a narrow minded thesaurus. I hope one day that you will have the slightest idea of what you are saying; then maybe you will shut up.

  86. John:

    Don’t know if you’ll read this – but I have to say I find your response fairly typical…your patience notwithstanding. I asked you a simple question…specify what aspect of the Vick situation you’re talking about. You’ve declined and decided to bounce. That’s the bottom line.

    If you honestly argue that in America, “whites” do not demonstrate a predictable, outsized outrage at perceived and actual transgressions of law, ethics and such by Blacks vs. by whites, you’re kidding yourself.

    Neither you nor any of the other “white” posters have even begun to challenge the primary point of the initial post. Given that, it’s time to move on.

    N.O. Native:

    If you’re so sure you understood what happened, why do you persist in denying that the outsized outrage of “whites” was the motive factor which created the demand for the Town Hall meeting in the first place. There are so many other transgressions involving big name folks where the reaction is muted, dismissive or non-existent. All of this is quantifiable. Re-read the RED paragraph. It’s really simple.

  87. If there was a large group of people standing in defense of Marv Albert, Chris Benoit, and Rush Limbaugh (wait, no one likes Rush), then there would be a controversy and a stand-off of sides (white, black, purple, whoever is representing the sides). But no one denies that they are douche bags for what they have done. Mark Chmura is a pedophile. What is there left to say? There aren’t “reverends” showing up at their court dates holding press conferences for their justice. What is lost in the mix of both Mike Vick and The Jena Six is that they BROKE THE LAW. These are not the same people who were brutally attacked for walking into a restaurant for a cup of coffee and shot with fire hoses over NOTHING. These people broke the law. It is a federal offense for dog fighting, illegal gambling, and beating another human being to within an inch of their life. The debate is it seems that Vick is being blindly backed by people who want him “left alone”, and just “going after another rich black man”. Where another side of it sees it as stupid that a man with the world in the palm of his hand would risk it all to watch a couple of dogs fight? I was a Vick fan, really I was. And the reason that I am not is not that he had dogs kill each other, its that he’s dumb. I actually related to him saying that I have a knucklehead brother and I know what it is like to have to deal with that. Then I find out all this, not to mention the green-sticky business at the airport (watch the SNL skit on youtube its funny). The guys just dumb. Vince Young? Where’s the controversy? Jason Campbell? Where’s the controversy? Larry Craig? Where’s the controversy? The guy’s a douche bag. Nuff said.

  88. temple3. I am ashamed at myself for contributing to this site. You’re a copy and paster with a thesaurus that adds quote marks, and a sentence paraphrased by, blah blah blah, I won’t address you since your point is so dumb. Why won’t you bring yourself down to our level then and share in the discussion. I guess I am pissed at myself for being duped into reading this when it is nothing more than a guy, with a can of ether (the thesaurus. It makes people ooh and aaahhh while reading crap that “this guy knows what hes talking about!) igniting an already healthy fire. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

  89. The question, bglt, is not “where’s the controversy?,” it’s where’s the outrage. I suggest taking a look at the works of John Dovidio. He’s a fairly popular psychologist in this area and has consistently found that some of the reaction to Michael Vick – as well as the comments written by AWM’s (y’all know who you are) fit a pattern call “aversive racism.” The term was coined by another professor in the 70’s, but Dovidio’s work is solid here. Check it out for yourself.

    You could make a laundry list of all the anti-Black quotes which have been posted. “Aversive racism.”

  90. your not racist but say that whites aren’t worth wasting a bullet on………….riiiight….whatever helps you sleep at night.

    temple….you are ignorant. You seem to have a good handle on words, so i’m sure you know what ignorant means. Keep on fighting the good fight.

  91. temple if you really despise racism then why don’t you call out the obvious black racist posting on here. Eric daniels is obv racist. You guys have to say, “we see through what you guys are saying and it’s really racist.”
    But eric daniels calls people whiteboys and crackers and temple (who fancies himself some kind of civil rights activist) doesn’t speak a word.
    Cause you are like a lot of black people in this country (not all by no means), but a lot when it’s soooo evil for a white person to be racist (which it is) but when blacks are racist…uh….uh…..uh…ignore.

    As for the video, come on, if that boy was black and those kids were white, jesse jackson, al sharpton, the naacp would be in that town marching and protesting.

    I was embarassed for the people at the town hall meeting. I was embarassed as an AMERICAN that in this country we have racism and reverse racism. Since you didn’t watch let me enlighten you. The question was posed on if dog fighting should be a federal crime or not and the crowd booed. The crowd basically booed any negative comment about the vick situation (even facts that cant be disputed nor be looked at as opinion.) And they cheered any time someone said something positive. BLIND SUPPORT. Thats all it is.

    I’m really out this time, I’m not coming back to even read your lame dictionary response about this case and this web site, or this professor or this and that and white supremacy. I’ll let you get back to your black panther meeting about how whitey is keeping you down and that is the reason black people in this country can’t get thier shit together.
    (i’ll grant you it’s part of the reason, and was more back in the day, but there are other reasons….as in not wanting to take responsibility for your own actions..seems to be a big problem in the african american community…bit problems in the white community as well, but the bind support for vick is a good example.

  92. have fun you black racists!

    I call out white idiot racists and black ones, i hate them all. And this country will never move on in our lifetimes, or ever with people like you around.

  93. oh and when the president of the human society said “people are acting like mike vick is a victim here. The victims are the dead dogs and dogs forced to live only to fight and kill each other.” THE CROWD BOOED HIM. HILARIOUS. “FREE MIKE VICK”
    FREE him from what.?

    Free my cousin who got selling crack!
    UH, Well he wouldn’t have to if whitey didn’t keep our people down and ruin our communities.

    People like this are just as big a part of the problem as a 275 pound fat sloppy redneck calling black people niggers. JUST AS BIG A PART. You guys do nothing but egg each other on. While mainstream, regular americans of black, white, latino decent sit back and scoff at all of you.

  94. Unbelievable….Hey T3…have you noticed that the mere mention of “Vick” generates an absolutely unnatural hate in dem folks? There’s a Vick divide alright…the sane vs in the insane. You know they were googling up all blogs on the subject all Tuesday night. I swear, just put “VIck” in your tags for any subject and you’ll get a thousand hits…of course they’ll be disappointed that you would dare actually be blogging about something else…and slither away in disappointment with no comments. They can’t even see how they proved your point.

  95. No question Miranda. It’s comical. I was going through some psychology studies on “Aversive Racism” and “Dominative Racism.” These responses are textbook and predictable.

    Perhaps the most predictable part is the unwillingness to do some heavy lifting/research in an area where folks presume to have so much expertise.

  96. At least Dante is kicking the Dolphins ass today Miranda and Temple. Nick is your typical klan rambler he and the others should stay on Stromfront where they can send death threats to the families of the Jena 6. Hey Nick, Erikk, and the rest of you crackers if you send one death threat to me and my family memebers like what the neo- racist groups are doing to those black families in Jena and Leonard Pitts and the FBI and homeland security won’t do their jobs and throw those people in jail for terrorism then it’s time for law abiding Black People to black start self- defense groups against whites and others (in particular Latin street gangs in L.A.)

    No I don’t believe in Christian non- violence especially when some white kid rolling with five of his friends pulls a shotgun on you and I don’t care if it’s loaded or not YOU WILL BE A RESIDENT IN A CEMETARY.

  97. eric daniels
    your not a tough guy. To beat up a “cracker” you have to round up your boys and jump him, like the jena 6 kids or the kids in the video i posted. You are however a internet toughguy. Good job on that. I dont care what you call me. You can’t point out one thing i said that was racist. Temple says I’m saying racist things based off of some obscure studies prob done by some group or professor with an obvious agenda.

    DO YOU REALLY HATE RACISM. CALL OUT YOUR BOY ERIK DANIELS AND HIS OBV RACIST REMARKS. You wont like i said..Cause black people cant be racist can they?

    by the way…hanging nooses in a tree….terrible…terrible..evil…those kids should have been expelled and punished for hate crimes. But that doesnt mean the pussy ass kids who jumped the one kid and beat him within an inch of his life should get off scott free. They all broke the LAW in some shape or form and should be punished by the LAW. But of course a lot of black peope think being called a nigger or being called a racist comment or word gives them the right to round up the boys and jump the kid. INSANE.
    I could actually understand fighting someone one on one if i was called a cracker…in fact, i beat up a black kid in high school for calling me a “white boy”. Many white kids were around, NOBODY jumped in. IF (and i never would have or will) i called him a nigger, i would have been jumped by every black kid in earshot. I know there are plenty of pussy as white kids who jump people. But I noticed minorities do it more often. They ban together and it’s not looked at as a pussy action its looked at as “defending your own” Where is the honor in kicking a kid in the face while he is on the groud because two or three or four of your friends are also kicking him?

    I played defensive back at Eastern Illinois. Was THE only white DB. Got along GREAT with all my boys from miami and ft lauderdale and chicago, st louis. All tough hard nosed guys. We openly talked about racism (esp since a lot of guys were from the south and used a lot of “racial language”. WHen we first hung out they would always call white guys cracker, when we were playing madden or watching a game. I confronted them on it and showed them that it was the same thing as if i called them a nigger, they agreed and actually stopped using the word, at least around me. I’m sure you can find racism in anyting there temple 3. Here is an idea. Use your little studies on racism and apply them to your own posts/blogs. Im sure your posts will wreak of racism as well.

    Eric daniels, you sir are a pussy. Go jump a white guy for some “percieved racism”. That will teach the millions of white americans. That will really change the perceptions of the racists you are fighting against….Keep fighting the good fight, putting “crackers” in cemetaries.
    I dont like to resort to name calling, but this eric daniels guy is on a site that rails against racism and is obv racist himself….and the author of the blog wont even call out this racist…instead he will try to read into every statement and make an obscure comparison to some study that says the comments alude to racism….hilarious…ok back to your black panther party…where is Huey when you guys need him?

  98. Oh and the people sending death threats to the families….fucking retards. They should be punished by the law as well. They are also pussies. THey do not represent the majority of white people. They are the fringe, the racists that mainstream whites hate. Just like old eric daniels here. He does not represent black people. Only the fringe, the racists. The one that mainstream black people are ashamed of.

    Jena 6. Def some racial issues going on there. I am not naive. I Know racism still exists. But not to the extent you guys are trying to make it out to be.

    And being called a nigger or cracker, doesnt give you the right to assult someone….def doesnt give you the right to round up a bunch of people to assult someone. i was wrong when i did it(but i fought one on one). I eventually became friends with the guy i fought. He tried to play football, although his grades werent up to par. I matured and i know now that if i assult someone FOR ANY REASON but self defense, i will accept the punishment. I wont expect anyone to make excuses for my actions.

  99. Not saying there isn’t any racism in the town of JENA. But
    Facts about the “Jena 6 ” case the liberal media doesn’t want you to know.

    The so-called “white tree” at Jena High, often reported to be the domain of only white students, was nothing of the sort, according to teachers and school administrators; students of all races, they say, congregated under it at one time or another.

    _Two nooses _ not three _ were found dangling from the tree. Beyond being offensive to blacks, the nooses were cut down because black and white students “were playing with them, pulling on them, jump-swinging from them, and putting their heads through them,” according to a black teacher who witnessed the scene.

    _There was no connection between the September noose incident and December attack, according to Donald Washington, an attorney for the U.S. Justice Department in western Louisiana, who investigated claims that these events might be race-related hate crimes.

    _The three youths accused of hanging the nooses were not suspended for just three days _ they were isolated at an alternative school for about a month, and then given an in-school suspension for two weeks. (This is bullshit..they should have gotton harsher penalties. THis is where i think the racism comes in)

    _The six-member jury that convicted Bell was, indeed, all white. However, only one in 10 people in LaSalle Parish is African American, and though black residents were selected randomly by computer and summoned for jury selection, none showed up.

    I’m all for getting to the bottom of the racism in this case. But “Free the jena 6”? Let them go scott free. No way. They still beat the living dog shit in a very cowardly manner and should be punished in a FAIR way. (even if it was retaliation it was wrong)

  100. Nick – what is the difference, if any, between racism, prejudice, bias and white supremacy? Are these things all the same? Is it just semantics?

  101. nick you are not collede educated you are pure white trash, it took you three posts again to call me a racist when you can see my blog lolol. Nick, you never saw a college unless you were watching some team play on t.v. and if you did you that Eastern Illnois ain’t worth the sheepskin it’s printed on and talking about your black friends and playing madden how condesending. And since you started making racial assertions first dumbass you got rolled

    Yeah those white boys pulled a shoutgun on those black kids in Jena , I don’t care if it’s loaded or not,if you pull a gun on someone in a big city and don’t pull the trigger you signed your own death warrant.This is an example of Southern white citizens thought they could exact their brand of racial justice and now they are in the sportlight for their inbred redneck racism (where David Duke got 80 percent of the vote when he ran for Governor) and they gave the addresses of the families on these kids to white racialist groups isn’t that terrorism? where is the condemnation from white america I don’t see them invoking MLK name on white criminality and violence?

  102. Graduated from eastern illinois with a BA
    Working on my masters right now

    believe what you want man, i really don’t care.

    From your posts i’ll guess(like you did about me)
    that you are one of those dorky ass middle class black kids that actually has both parents in the home, but acts walks and talks like they are from the “hood” and identifies with the “thugs”. Your racists beliefs go unchecked because you present yourself as a thug, and normal people don’t want to deal with you. In my expierience, thugs more often than not are pussies who need thier boys or guns to finish a fight. That goes for white, black chinese thugs.

    Temple, nothing to say about your racist boy here?

    Nope, just like i thought.
    Only whites are racist aren’t they?

  103. Congrats Nick on your degree. Eric Daniels is not my “racist boy.” I think you need to check yourself. I don’t have anything to say about him – but I have plenty to say about you.

    His words to you do not constitute “racism.” Period. You can call it something else if you like, but you cannot call it that – not here. You can call it bias, if you like. But you shouldn’t be here acting like a little baby because you got pimp slapped by the bias boot. That’s some weak shit. Man up and handle yours. Show and prove you’re not like the people Eric thinks you are. Don’t whine and complain and look to me for assistance. Eric didn’t impose his will on you or undermine the quality of your life – he called you a name in a limited context…and you would not have even been called a name if you didn’t self identify as “white” and espouse those positions.

    Persons other than whites can exercise power over individuals and impose sanctions on whites – but this is so rare as to be negligible. For example, if a group of Black men decided that you should die on October 15th merely and precisely because you have a dermis deemed “white” – and they killed you – and escaped prosecution by a white-controlled law enforcement/justice system, that would be amazing. And if they were able to systematize it – and replicate it and consistently avoid sanctions and train a cadre to replicate that work, that would be racism. It would be an institutionalized power over so-called “whites” based on a white supremacist definition of who is “white” and who is not.

    We don’t have to take it to murder – we can use other examples – but by and large, white people are wholly unaffected from loss of life, wealth or happiness as a result of white supremacy/racism. In fact, it extends life expectancy, adds wealth and increases happiness by inculcating all adherents with a false sense of a fabricated racial “self.” You ain’t white…you just think you are.

    We’re not talking about ideas or your feelings. Man up, son. If Eric heated you, handle it. Stop whining. Stop looking for me to repudiate the brother man. Handle it yourself. We’re talking about power, collectives, institutions and the power of life and death.

  104. SOOOO typical.
    “it’s not racism, its bias”?????
    I’m not looking to you for anything. Simply showing how “BIAS” you are. You will look into a statment made by a white person and use some obscure study to show that it has “racist” overtones, but when a black poster uses “cracker” “whiteboys” its not racism it’s bias. You lost all cred on the subject with your original points, your weak counter arguments and now your failure to call out any racist. Not just the white ones.

    You sir, are the one who got “pimp slapped” all over your own blog.

  105. Actually if you want to get technical “racism” is not the correct term anyway. To be a “racist” is one who studies and understands race. Like “pshycologist” or “Pshyciatrist” . Notice the IST on the end. Over time the word took on the meaning it has now. Learned that from my Black professor in my intercultural communication class. Prejudice is the correct term.

    And my posts were exposing you and eric. Two birds with one stone. Although i’m not sure it means anything being this is an obv “black power” blog prob read mostly by african americans with the same mindset. So i’m sure most who read this will buy into you useless drivel and my “cracker” ideas.

  106. Nick….Webster told me to tell you, “Bias = prejudice”. Bigot = of a biased, prejudiced opinion.” So, you’re really agreeing with T3…he’s says bias…you say prejudice…”TaMAEto – tamaTOE”

    Mr. Daniels comments to you weren’t going to be sweet, dripping with honey. Did you really expect warm-fuzzies from the man?
    LOL at the attempt to “check” T3…pimped slapped? Riiiiiight.

  107. At no time, except in the mind of Nick, has the term “racist” been used to define persons who study race. The term was/is “racislist.” It’s a clumsy construction, but that the term. You professor didn’t know what he/she was talking about. Even “prejudice” is not the proper term because Eric’s comments are all about collective dynamics and his logical expectation based on an existing history. His comments could be considered prejudicial to an individual – but individualism is a paradigm for perceiving others. It’s not the only paradigm – and was actually foreign to most people around the globe before the Age of Imperialism.

    In other words, “we” persons were thought to be representative of our groups – and that wasn’t a negative thing. It was a positive (sometimes – especially if your group had a positive reputation) – and it was a mechanism for persons engaged in trade or other relations to accelerate their “intercultural communications.” This practice has not changed much. Business schools still teach students about Japanese, Chinese and European culture. If we’re all individuals, why bother? Simple. We’re not merely individual silos floating around. We are connected to our familiies, societies, and the histories of each. White supremacy/racism is as much a part of America as a bowl of won tons is to China. The life bread of most Americans is a form of white supremacist thought and action.

    To reduce Eric’s comments to prejudice is to suggest that no persons views, political actions or philosophies can be deduced by their associations, predilections and preferences. If Eric is “prejudiced”, then there are no groups – no collectives – no shared identities. There are no Americans, there no New Yorkers, Californians, Israelis, Muslims, or Jews. There are no women, there are no men, there are no children – because every single exception puts the existence of that group to lie. In other words, every time a person does not FIT the category, the “group” disappears…That’s absurd – and it’s a logical fallacy. The notion that you’re part of a group does not mean that you exhibit every single trait of that group – but is it logical to expect Chinese persons to speak Chinese? I say yes. If you meet 1 Chinese person who does not speak Chinese, does that mean it is not logical to assume that Chinese people speak Chinese? Of course not. Even if you met 100,000 Chinese persons who didn’t speak the language, it should not change that fundamental assumption. So it is with the practice of white supremacy/racism. If you want to argue about it, do the math.

    Historically, at some point, the plains Indian had to assume that 9 out of 10 white settlers were hell bent on stealing their access to land, or contributing to that outcome in some shape or form. It doesn’t mean killing blondes on sight – but it certainly meant having a gun ready. At some point, the descendants of enslaved Africans figured out (just as experimental psychologists have) that the overwhelming majority of whites practice some form of racism. Read Jack Dovidio’s work. Read some white folks’ empirical analysis – then come back to talk about “what you think you think you know.” I believe Eric demonstrated a clear bias, but to call it prejudice – for me, that’s a reach. To call it racism – we agree (for different reasons) is flatly incorrect.

    I prefer to use the right words and agree on common terms. We won’t be using the white supremacist version of terms which reduces everything to ideas — and removes ACTION from the discussion. You should be worried anytime your own phrasing equates persons like Al Sharpton with slaveowners like Patrick Henry and Thomas Jefferson. You need new language – and stay away from “intercultural communications” classes…that shit sounds fluffy…like a jocks class. You’re clearly smarter than that.

  108. I am a education student at Youngstown State University. I am creating a lesson plan about segregation, and I was wondering if you would grant me permission to use some of your photos in my lesson plan. You can e-mail me at Thank you for your time.

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